Welcome to Austin DWI Charges, a four-part conversation with Ellen Stader and Austin criminal defense attorney Charlie Roadman. Charlie has handled over 500 DWI cases in his 15-year career as a defense attorney in Austin. In these interviews, he discusses the Travis County Court System, strategies, negotiation, and what you should do after the arrest. For more information on Charlie, check out roadmanlaw.com. For more info on Ellen, check out austinwomenlove.com. Episode one.

Ellen Stader:

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. I am Ellen Stader. I'm here with Charlie Roadman, who is going to give us everything we need to know about being arrested for DUI.

Charlie Roadman:

Although this is great, in Texas it's a DWI.

Ellen Stader:

Okay, so-

Charlie Roadman:

So this is a great way to start this because in different states, it's a DU-

Ellen Stader:

It's a different thing.

Charlie Roadman:

... DUI. But in Texas, it's a DWI.

Ellen Stader:

Okay. Let me say that over, and then I'll ask you about the difference.

Charlie Roadman:

I don't even think you need to say that over. We're just going.

Ellen Stader:

All right. Well then, tell us the difference between a DUI and a DWI.

Charlie Roadman:

Okay. Well, in different states, there's no difference or they have different laws. So California, it's a DUI. We do actually have a DUI in Texas when it's for driving under the influence as opposed to driving-

Ellen Stader:

While intoxicated.

Charlie Roadman:

... while intoxicated. So when you're driving under the influence is, if you're a minor and the officer smells any alcohol in your breath. So they pull you over, you're 17, and he smells alcohol, but you're not intoxicated, they can give you a ticket. DUI in Texas is a class C ticket.

Ellen Stader:

Okay. Much smaller trouble-

Charlie Roadman:

Yes, yes.

Ellen Stader:

... than a DWI.

Charlie Roadman:

It is. Unless your parents are really strict and then they get pretty mad about that, so it really depends on your parents.

Ellen Stader:

Wow. All right. So... No, go ahead.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah, so you know what I wanted to talk about and why I'm so glad you're doing this with me, I tell people when I'm talking to them that I could talk about a DWI for two days straight, like just nonstop, and that is totally true.

Charlie Roadman:

What I wanted to do is get as much of this is down, so people can listen to it because my clients do want to know more and having an audio that they can listen to at their convenience I think helps because often when I'm talking with them, their brain's going a thousand miles an hour. I say-

Ellen Stader:

They can't rewind you and-

Charlie Roadman:

They can't.

Ellen Stader:

... pause you?

Charlie Roadman:

No. Honestly, I'll say something and then 10 minutes later, it's clear that they didn't understand my answer.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

And even though I try, I really try to make it as clear as possible, the concepts are tricky.

Ellen Stader:

The people are so agitated in this situation that retaining information is sort of goes out the door.

Charlie Roadman:

It really does. And you know what, when we have clients at court and I tell them what just happened with the prosecutor and stuff, we go back to the office and we write an email saying the exact same thing because it's too much. It's like one of the most stressful parts of your life and you need it. You need some time to process what's been said.

Ellen Stader:

And to have it in black and white to be able to read it over and over again. Yeah. That's going to be helpful.

Charlie Roadman:

Or in digital audio.

Ellen Stader:

Or in digital audio.

Charlie Roadman:

Right. But at least we tell them bring your friends... or bring your-

Ellen Stader:

Bring your people.

Charlie Roadman:

... smartest friend, bring your smartest friend or a family member so that altogether we can make sure everybody understands what's happening.

Ellen Stader:

It takes a village.

Charlie Roadman:

It does. It really does.

Ellen Stader:

Plus, I wouldn't want to go through that alone.

Charlie Roadman:

No. And some people they do and some people bring their family members and friends, and it's nice to have that support.

Ellen Stader:

Yeah, absolutely.

Charlie Roadman:

But I wanted to talk about from the beginning. I mean, this isn't going to go chronologically exactly, but the people are calling me generally after they've been arrested a day or two or a week or so. I've done this for 15 years, and so it's incredibly traumatic for 99% of the people. There's a few that are acting like it wasn't a big deal, but 99% people are just shell-shocked because it surprises people how terrible going to jail is.

Charlie Roadman:

It's not that they're torturing you or it's not dirty or old, like ancient iron maidens and things there, but it's just a sudden loss of freedom, where's my car going and then you have to tell everybody, or at least some of the people, where you are and-

Ellen Stader:

Right. So right there, you've said you lose your mobility, you lose your privacy, you lose your agency.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. It's just like the rug's been pulled out from under you.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

Now luckily, that phase, the being arrested, is really the worst part of this. So by the time people are talking with me, I get to say, "Well, the good news is there's no more of that." Because DWIs in Austin, typically, unless there's something extraordinarily dramatic or it's like your fifth or sixth one, they just want probation.

Ellen Stader:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Charlie Roadman:

They don't want more jail time.

Ellen Stader:

That's good to know.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. It is. Because you're sitting in jail, you get out, and then you're wondering if you're going back. Now, you could go back if you violate the rules because there's a bunch of rules to get in place very quickly about your car and things depending on the facts, but-

Ellen Stader:

Obligations you have to fulfill too.

Charlie Roadman:

Yes.

Ellen Stader:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Charlie Roadman:

So, I mean, I'm not saying it's impossible for you to go back to jail, but it really isn't likely if you follow the rules. But anyway, the trauma of it is... I describe it a lot in terms of Maslow's hierarchy, where I'm not sure if everybody's familiar with that.

Ellen Stader:

Yeah, go over that just a little-

Charlie Roadman:

Okay.

Ellen Stader:

... for our listeners.

Charlie Roadman:

Yes. The goal, I always start with the goal, the goal is self-actualization, which is really just having the best life you could have. You're happy. Just everything is going perfectly. Now, to reach that, you got to fulfill the bottom levels, and the basic level is your physiological needs. And that's food and water and air. So for example, you can't be having the best life you want to have if you're starving or can't breathe. You can't get up to the top without that bottom level, your physiological needs.

Ellen Stader:

You're eating, you're drinking, you're breathing. Step one.

Charlie Roadman:

Step one. Step two, you need to have safety and security in your life. And now that's fairly broad in the sense... I say if you're in a jungle and you're surrounded by tigers, you're not thinking about-

Ellen Stader:

No safety and security.

Charlie Roadman:

... anything else.

Ellen Stader:

Right?

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. You're not thinking about the things that you get to the top. You're not thinking about your career. You're thinking about, "How do I survive this?" but it also applies to where you live and your house. If you're in a bad situation in life, abusive partners or things like that, or you're about to get evicted, that's a safety and security level. So after physiological needs, you need safety and security.

Charlie Roadman:

Then, once you've satisfied that, then the next level is love and belonging. And that is where you need friendship and love and family and those-

Ellen Stader:

People you can trust in the community.

Charlie Roadman:

Right.

Ellen Stader:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Charlie Roadman:

And you have to have that to get to the top, to get to self-actualization. And even some people say, "Well, I'm a loner." But maybe people can do that for a little while, but humans, it's just in their DNA that we're social creatures and we need-

Ellen Stader:

Yeah, we can't help it.

Charlie Roadman:

No, can't help it. So you can't will yourself to not need a partner or love and relationships, so.

Ellen Stader:

And you can't live in the world without other people. If you go to the store and there's no one there working there willing sell you food, you're not going to get fed.

Charlie Roadman:

Exactly. So you have this social element. The next level after that is self-esteem. So to get to the top, you've got to feel good about yourself, you've got to have accomplished goals, and education helps with that. I mean, as you feel proud of yourself and if you're overly critical or stuff, that's a problem. So you're not going to be the best you can be if you're incapacitated with shame or those types of things.

Charlie Roadman:

And now, the reason I talk about this stuff is because in arrest, it affects all of those things. I mean, self-esteem, obviously. I talked to a lot of people that this is the first trouble they've been in their whole lives, and they say, "I never thought I would be in this situation."

Ellen Stader:

Right. Yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

So it really just a massive impact to their self-esteem. Love and belonging, of course, because they have to tell their parents, some of them tell their parents or their partners, and sometimes they don't respond well. And so this threatens this love and belonging.

Charlie Roadman:

So we're walking back down. And then, threatens safety and security in the sense that it's a financial impact. Sometimes people lose their jobs. I mean, not very often, but they're scared of losing their jobs, so that affects. And when I, what I... My bit about jobs say that said that DWI is a catastrophe for truck drivers, airline pilots, and some public school teaching. Those are the three jobs that really man, people fire you fast.

Ellen Stader:

Yeah. It's hard to go back.

Charlie Roadman:

It's hard. But if you're not truck driver, pilot, or teacher, and even the teacher, you can eventually work your way back, but anyway, so there's that safety and security, and then the physiological needs. Just the actual physical trauma of, as you said, losing your agency, losing your ability to control for that 24-hour period when you're in jail.

Ellen Stader:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). You're at the mercy of people who do not care about you.

Charlie Roadman:

They don't. The people in the jail, I wouldn't say that they're... They're not abusive at the jail, but they are all day long... I mean, they sort of have to by that job to just sort of have a blank thing. They don't tell you stuff.

Ellen Stader:

They're not there for your comfort or to help you through the process.

Charlie Roadman:

No. I say that Travis County Sheriff's office is not customer service oriented. They want to solve the problem of dealing with you, but they are under no obligation to-

Ellen Stader:

Make it a more pleasant experience for you.

Charlie Roadman:

No. Uh-uh (negative), no, so.

Ellen Stader:

Right. Yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

The other thing, Travis County Sheriff, they have a lot of jobs throughout the whole county, and the deputies are at the bottom of the jail at 4:00 AM. That's not the top quality. Sheriff's deputies that... There's much more other better jobs that the top candidates get.

Ellen Stader:

Right. And they're not seeing anyone at their best.

Charlie Roadman:

No.

Ellen Stader:

It comes from both sides.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. I can't even imagine if I had to wake up and go work at the jail all night long. That would be tough.

Ellen Stader:

Yep.

Charlie Roadman:

So, anyway, it's a...

Ellen Stader:

It's a natural thing for... I mean, obviously it's natural for people to feel freaked out, but it does affect every level of your life, and it's just perfectly natural to have it sort of rock your world.

Charlie Roadman:

It is. But at the same time, it's an opportunity to look at fixing some parts of life I mean because-

Ellen Stader:

That had led you to that point.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

Obviously, I don't think... This type of arrest can happen to anyone. I mean, it's...

Ellen Stader:

And it does.

Charlie Roadman:

Yes. And at the courthouse, judges have been arrested for this, lots of prosecutors have been arrested for this, defense attorneys. A few years back, the district attorney got arrested for DWI, like a terrible one. And she was in charge of prosecuting people for felony DWIs.

Ellen Stader:

I remember that.

Charlie Roadman:

And you're just like, "Man, if this person whose job every day can get one, it's just..." Really, the conclusion is that alcohol is an insidious stroke. It takes, I say, Einstein would do dumb stuff on his third glass of wine.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

It's a pretty-

Ellen Stader:

We've seen the photos.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. Right. Everyone who drinks, that this is a possibility because-

Ellen Stader:

It affects your judgment. That's the bottom line.

Charlie Roadman:

That's the first thing. Because they look at you, it affects you physically. But before it affects you physically, it affects your judgment. And so, it's just every day people say, "If I drink too many, I'm going to get a taxi." But once they drink too many, they don't.

Ellen Stader:

Right. Because their judgment is impaired at that point.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. The other thing about alcohol, back to Maslow, is that alcohol what it does is it boosts those levels temporarily. When you drink, it boosts your safety and security level, like you feel invincible, right? That's what keeps-

Ellen Stader:

Right. Your perception.

Charlie Roadman:

... yes, your perception. You feel like, "Well, I can beat up that guy" or whatever. It also boosts love and belonging. There's a more emotional thing, it spikes. And then of course, self-esteem, right? You feel like, "I'm a God" or whatever alcohol does. Now, of course that dissipates in three hours or whatever it is, but there's this temporary boosting where-

Ellen Stader:

And that's why we love it because it makes us feel like...

Charlie Roadman:

Yes. Exact words. Yeah.

Ellen Stader:

"Wow, things are so great."

Charlie Roadman:

Right. Alcohol's insidious but it works for this thing. But what this opportunity that I like to work with my clients is like let's figure out how do we get that self-esteem boost without alcohol, okay?

Ellen Stader:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Charlie Roadman:

And that could be a lot of different things. How do we get the love and belonging boost without... Something permanent. We're looking for permanent boost not temporary boost.

Ellen Stader:

And in reality, not just in perception.

Charlie Roadman:

Right.

Ellen Stader:

Yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

Exactly. And so, this is an opportunity. Sometimes my clients are looking at me or people that are considering to hire me, this has just happened to them and they look at me, and I'm saying, "Look, this is a great opportunity." And they're looking at me like I'm crazy.

Ellen Stader:

This seems like the absolute worst time for me to look at my habits and change my patterns.

Charlie Roadman:

Right. And they often say, they'll go, "Well, I was going to do X, Y, or Z. I was going to go for that job" or, "I was going to do that education thing" or, "I was going to move" or whatever. There's things that they wanted to do, and they said, "But now, because of this, I can't do any of that." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. Now, we accelerate those plans. We don't stop that. In fact, now it's more important to do those plans because the main thing will get credit from the prosecutors for doing it, because part of my job is showing the prosecutors who you are. And the more proactive and moving towards goals you are, the less likely it looks like this DWI event's going to happen again. But now if you're in a fetal position waiting for this to be over...

Ellen Stader:

You're not looking so impressive to your prosecutors.

Charlie Roadman:

You're not, you're not. Anyway, I sort of paused before I tell them the good news that this arrest is an opportunity, but I do believe that. And most of my clients come around to it at some point going, "You know what, I learned about this or that and then they come and-

Ellen Stader:

I heard plenty of people say that, "It was a trauma and it was a nightmare. But with hindsight, I can see it was a blessing in disguise because then I got myself together after that."

Charlie Roadman:

Right, right. And so that's what I'm trying to facilitate.

Ellen Stader:

Scared Straight.

Charlie Roadman:

Scared Straight. But at the moment, one of the things, once you get an arrest, there's all these rules that just attach immediately. Bond conditions are the first one. At some people, there aren't any bond conditions other than show up to court.

Ellen Stader:

And bond conditions are what you need to satisfy to get out of jail.

Charlie Roadman:

Well, while you're out of jail.

Ellen Stader:

Okay.

Charlie Roadman:

So, for example, let's say that the blood alcohol content was very high or there's a wreck or it was not a good DWI, so it was a bad facts. The magistrate judge will likely say, "You need to put an ignition interlock device in your car." So to start your car and drive around, you have to blow the device. And they'll say, "You have to get this evaluation for counseling classes." That's the main thing. And then, they can do a supervised bond, meaning you have an officer that sort of keeps track with you every three weeks. And typically with that, you're not supposed to drink. So those are kind of stiff bond conditions on the DWI.

Charlie Roadman:

Now, some people have a less dramatic DWI where they rolled through a stop sign and the BAC was a 0.09. So it's over but barely, and the judge in that situation might not have all those conditions. However, the magistrate judges there's like 15 different ones, so they all have their own techniques. The more conditions they put, the safer it is for the judge in terms of they don't want to be blamed if it happens again.

Ellen Stader:

If it happens again. Right.

Charlie Roadman:

And I tell you, it sounds nuts when I tell my clients this can't happen again while this is pending, they look at me like, "No way." However, I have file cabinet full of people that get multiple DWIs. Honestly, because of the trauma, the first one, they sort of-

Ellen Stader:

Right. They're vulnerable and they're... yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

They go look for that boost from alcohol again.

Ellen Stader:

They want to get numb again, yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. And so, if this is your first DWI or if you're got a pending DWI, you cannot be behind the wheel with any alcohol on your breath whatsoever. You can't drink just one beer and drive home because while you would be under the limit, the officer doesn't necessarily know that, and they'll just arrest you. If they see you have a pending DWI and they smell alcohol, they're going to go, "Oops, you can sort it out in jail" or, "You can sort it out in court." And especially with rideshare companies now, there's just isn't any necessary-

Ellen Stader:

Yeah. There's no reason not to-

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah.

Ellen Stader:

... not to use one.

Charlie Roadman:

Load them all up, Lyft and Uber, and all on your phone and-

Ellen Stader:

RideAustin.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. RideAustin. And if you haven't done that, I've actually... I've made some of my clients order a rideshare from my office just to show them how it works.

Ellen Stader:

So they can know how to use it [crosstalk 00:20:24].

Charlie Roadman:

Because it just takes one time to see how it works and you go, "Ah, man." It's like a whole-

Ellen Stader:

Pretty easy.

Charlie Roadman:

... It's like a whole transportation network, just materialize out of thin air.

Ellen Stader:

And it's actually easier than finding your car, getting the keys in the ignition and-

Charlie Roadman:

Right.

Ellen Stader:

... you just call them, stand on a corner, and they take you home.

Charlie Roadman:

Right. It's an incredible new system. So anyway, there's these bond conditions and while the case is pending, you just got to make sure you understand what the rules are. And...

Ellen Stader:

Can we back up a little bit and just sort of quickly go through the steps that people are going to encounter, like I am sitting in my car with the cherries rolling behind me, and the officer is at my window.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. Okay. So the steps... Well, you mean like what you should do if you're pulled over?

Ellen Stader:

Yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

Okay. Well, that's tricky because what everyone wants to know is should you blow or not, right? And nowadays, they take blood from people who don't blow.

Ellen Stader:

Oh, okay.

Charlie Roadman:

So 90% or 95% of the time. There are some scenario-

Ellen Stader:

They're going to test you one way or another?

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. They're going to get one way or the other. I do have clients that they blow, and there's two breathalyzer machines. There's one, when you're pulled over. After you do the Field Sobriety Test, they'll give you a portable breath tester. And then, they arrest you and take you to station and have you blow again. And then if you don't blow, they'll take your blood most of the time.

Charlie Roadman:

Now, I have clients that say, "I wish I didn't blow." And I say, "Well, they probably would've taken your blood." So 10 years ago, before they were taking blood. Yeah.

Ellen Stader:

When you actually had an option.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. When you actually had-

Ellen Stader:

Now, you kind of just might as well, huh?

Charlie Roadman:

I don't want to say because I can't... I mean, I'm a lawyer, so I think about all the scenarios, right? It's not a hundred percent. You shouldn't always blow because there's some law agencies that actually don't get the warrant to take your blood.

Ellen Stader:

Oh, okay.

Charlie Roadman:

But 95% do, so there's a whole bunch of variables that someone that doesn't work in this business for 15 years that they wouldn't be able to do the calculus, especially if they've been drinking.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

Or they're scared.

Ellen Stader:

Good point.

Charlie Roadman:

If you called me and gave me all those facts, I'd tell you what to do, but they won't let you call me.

Ellen Stader:

Right. Good point.

Charlie Roadman:

You don't have a right to a lawyer at the scene.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

But once they do that and take you to the station, hopefully you were only in there for 12 to 16 hours and got out.

Ellen Stader:

Only 12 to 16 hours.

Charlie Roadman:

I know. It's brutal. And you don't really know because you don't know if you're getting out and you don't... It's a trauma-

Ellen Stader:

That uncertainty and being at the mercy of other people, again, who... It's not their job to care about you in this situation.

Charlie Roadman:

Nope.

Ellen Stader:

Yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

Nope.

Ellen Stader:

So you sit and you wait for processing to happen?

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah, processing and waiting for the officer to write the probable cause affidavit to explain to the magistrate judge why they arrested you. The judge then looks at that summary of what the facts were and then sets the bond, and that's sort of arbitrary, but they have arraigned. So, for example, a plain vanilla DWI, no wreck, low BAC, they'll set the bond at $2,500. For one where there was a wreck, they might set it for $5,000 or $6,000. But the magistrate judge makes that decision. And then, Pretrial Services figures out whether they should give you a personal bond or not, or an attorney helps get that done.

Ellen Stader:

And what's a personal bond?

Charlie Roadman:

Personal bond is it's the court deciding that they're going to let you out of jail without you hiring a bail bondsman because they believe that you're the type of person that's going to show up for court. And that would be like you have a job here or you live here in an apartment, but I say the shorthand is like, they're trying to figure out, are you going to show up as opposed to run to Mexico.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

So if you've got a job and a house and stuff, you're not going to leave all that because of a class B misdemeanor.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

So you're likely to show up. And then also, if you've already hired an attorney, which happens sometimes people call us and while people are still in jail and we do the jail release, hiring an attorney also gives them some indication that you're going to show up in court if you've got someone dealing with it.

Ellen Stader:

All right. Good. That's good to know because I think people... I mean, you just don't know what's facing you. You have no idea why it's taking so long. Are they just doing it to torture you and make you feel worse?

Charlie Roadman:

Right.

Ellen Stader:

No, there's actually a whole process going on behind the scenes to move your paperwork along.

Charlie Roadman:

And every part of this process is rational. I say lawyers basically have this system designed by lawyers and people who have reasons for why they do things. There's not a whimsical... The thing a lot of people are... Sometimes I have clients that cynically say, "They're just trying to get my money." And they're not trying to get your money. They're not. They want to make sure this thing doesn't happen again, okay?

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

Now, to convince people, to pressure people, it does cost money to have a system, so there are court costs and things like that but-

Ellen Stader:

And someone who knows how to navigate the system, which I feel like is mainly what people are paying for.

Charlie Roadman:

For attorneys?

Ellen Stader:

Yes, for attorneys.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. Like I said, I've been in this 15 years, and I know a lot more than I did when I was first or second year. It's a fair system in Travis County in the sense that rich people don't get their cases thrown out just because they're rich or wealthy. I mean, there's no corruption in that sense. Everybody gets treated the same and the prosecutors and the judges, they just look at the facts. And then they're-

Ellen Stader:

I think that's important for people to hear.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. Especially when you're trying to choose an attorney, because part of their brain is going, "Well, if I hire this very expensive attorney, they'll get the case thrown out." And I certainly believe that happens in rural counties and Texas or something somewhere out where it's still 1950. But in Travis County, it's a professionally run system. And their thoughtfulness and just because it's your first time being in trouble doesn't mean they're going to just dismiss it.

Ellen Stader:

Right.

Charlie Roadman:

But it's a lot better if it's your first time.

Ellen Stader:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

I mean, they're going to be less concerned that it's going to happen again. But yeah, I don't think I can work in a system that was just corrupt. I wouldn't like it. I know all the people and even sometimes I have friends get in trouble, and they don't get special treatment because they're my friends. I do everything I can to make sure they do what they need to do to get good results, but there just isn't a...

Charlie Roadman:

Sometimes I'll say, "This is what's going to happen. You could... Abraham Lincoln or some other famous lawyer couldn't get any better than this." There are different types of lawyers, but there's not ones that have... There's not a good old boy network, not in Travis County.

Ellen Stader:

That's also good to hear.

Charlie Roadman:

Not anymore. The old guard will tell stories, and I'll go, "Oh, wow. That was different like in-

Ellen Stader:

Wow, you did that? Dang

Charlie Roadman:

... 1963, right? But not in 2000.

Ellen Stader:

Well, it seems like in such a drinking town as Austin, that there has to be a working system in place to process these things happening because it's got to happen hundreds of times a week-

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah, or more.

Ellen Stader:

... a night.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. So on a weekend, they'll arrest 120, 130 people.

Ellen Stader:

Wow.

Charlie Roadman:

It's just astonishing, And that's even with rideshares. There's a lot less people drinking and driving, but there's still so many that I say the officers never come back to the station and go, "You know what, I couldn't find anybody." It's just like all they do is sit in these particular parts of around Sixth Street or around almost like-

Ellen Stader:

And wait for people to stumble by.

Charlie Roadman:

Or speed by or...

Ellen Stader:

Right. Or swerve by.

Charlie Roadman:

... swerve by.