Welcome to Austin DWI charges, a four part conversation with Ellen Stader and Austin criminal defense attorney, Charlie Roadman. Charlie has handled over 500 DWI cases in his 15 year career as a defense attorney in Austin. In these interviews, he discusses the Travis County court system, strategies, negotiation and what you should do after the arrest. For more information on Charlie, check out roadmanlaw.com. For more info on Ellen, check out austinwomenlove.com.

Ellen Stader:

Hello. Hello. My name is Ellen Stader. I'm coming to you from Austin, Texas. I'm here with Charlie Roadman, a defense attorney in town. We've been talking about the trauma of a DWI arrest and the many facets that go into navigating this kind of thing. Charlie, there are things that people can do to help their case. And one of them is to take a class. You want to talk about those kind of classes?

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. Well actually, there's two classes that are the minimum for every result. So to get your case dismissed, they want the classes. If you get on probation, they want the classes. If you take jail time, they want the classes. So,-

Ellen Stader:

So it's pretty much a requirement.

Charlie Roadman:

It's pretty much a requirement. I guess theoretically, you could say I'm not doing nothing, I want a jury trial and win a jury trial. And then yeah. But,-

Ellen Stader:

But how often does that happen?

Charlie Roadman:

It's not very often. If we're pretty sure we're going to win a jury trial, it would be, they'll dismiss the case and it's easier for them to dismiss it when they have these class certificates. Okay. So the first one is called the DWI E-class, the DWI education class. And it's 12 hours and it's three days long, four hours each day. Typically, it's Friday evening, Saturday morning, Sunday morning. But they do have the private companies that teach this, can do it any way they want it. I mean, they can do it Monday morning, Tuesday morning, Wednesday morning.

Charlie Roadman:

Some of them, they have it broken up in different ways for people who have different work habits, but they can't do it all at once. Everyone wants, "Where can do it in one day and just get it over with," it has to be three days. That's the minimum. And I know all about this because I used to teach the class. I had my own company doing this called Athens Education, I think like 2013 to 2015. I don't do it anymore, we've closed down the company. I miss it, but I'm so busy doing this stuff that it didn't make any sense for me to be teaching these classes. But I learned a lot, and I'm actually a fan of the class.

Ellen Stader:

Well, it ties into that community aspect of helping people make better choices. And...

Charlie Roadman:

It really does. And it gives people perspective. Because they're in a class with 25, 30 other people. And in the class, part of it, part of the class is designed to get everyone to tell their story. And so you hear all these nutty stories and some people are in a lot worse trouble than you. And some people have some pretty insane ideas about what's appropriate or not. Anyway, so people kind of come out of it going, "Oh". And what I say is, it's like a seventh grade health class combined with a reality TV show. So, no one wants to do it and everyone's got other things they could be doing,-

Ellen Stader:

Of course.

Charlie Roadman:

... Like watching HBO or whatever. But my sophisticated clients come out of it and go, "You know what? I learned something." And it really is designed to have people think about alcohol and how it's in their life for these 12 hours, which is useful for people. And it's, I think necessary.

Ellen Stader:

Absolutely. I mean, I kind of feel like we could all benefit from that.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. You don't have to be arrested for contemplating the role of alcohol. We should-

Ellen Stader:

Are you listening Austin? Are you?

Charlie Roadman:

So, it's a worthwhile... Anyway, they give you a certificate at the end. And it says, "John Doe did this class," and so it proves you did that.

Ellen Stader:

Okay. But wait, let's back up. What kind of topics are covered in the class?

Charlie Roadman:

They start with... Basically, we start talking about alcohol, it gets people talking. And it's one of the reasons that Travis County hasn't moved on to an online course. Some counties have an online course, but as we all know, I mean, you would just-

Ellen Stader:

You just start it and walk away.

Charlie Roadman:

... Sort of walk away or watch something else. Anyway. So this class is designed to get people talking. And even the most laconic, to use my hundred dollar word, people that are just determined not to talk, you end up talking.

Ellen Stader:

You end up... Yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

Because the guy next to you says something dumb and you're like,-

Ellen Stader:

That's dumb.

Charlie Roadman:

... That's dumb. You shouldn't drink a fifth of vodka to go to work. That's not how work should be. Anyway. But then they talk about what alcohol affects in your body. So like seventh grade in health, like just very basic things. One of the things that surprises people, the alcohol content of different beer. So, you have sort of a, say a low to normal alcohol content of like four or 0.4, right. You can have three of those, but if you have a high alcohol content beer, that is like 7.5, and three of those, [crosstalk 00:06:26] it's like eight. And they have this list of the different beers that-

Ellen Stader:

Titled, beers are not created equal.

Charlie Roadman:

Exactly. That's pretty much it. And people look at it and they're like, "Holy moly". And they also learn about not eating. And how that's... I think people think not eating will increase the alcohol intoxication like 20%. But it's like 200%, just crazy.-

Ellen Stader:

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

Charlie Roadman:

Like my file cabinet is full of people... I mean, if I had a nickel for everyone who told me, "I didn't eat that day,"-

Ellen Stader:

I just didn't eat.

Charlie Roadman:

That's... Anyway, you got to eat. But, its things like that. And they, like I said, people come away and go, I thought about alcohol, and it doesn't prove... The certificate doesn't prove it won't happen again. But it proves for 12 hours-

Ellen Stader:

That you are slightly more-

Charlie Roadman:

... you thought about it.

Ellen Stader:

Exactly. That you've given it thought. And you're slightly more informed than you were before.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. So, that's the main class. There's another class called, it's the MADD class or Victim Impact Panel is another name for it. It's a two hour class and that's at the courthouse. It's like first, third and fourth, Wednesday nights. It's all online, you can see when it is. That one's less fun. The way I say that is, you'll be with 50 other people all staring at your feet, praying for it to be over.

Ellen Stader:

Oh God.

Charlie Roadman:

They don't make it that bad, but it's not fun.

Ellen Stader:

Well, if you're hearing the stories of victims, it's going to be bad, period.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. But like I said, they try not to make it-

Ellen Stader:

It's not done with the-

Charlie Roadman:

With the goal-

Ellen Stader:

... with the purpose of making you feel like crap. But, it's a byproduct.

Charlie Roadman:

It is. But they give you a certificate too. And so, the prosecutors want to see both of those. And those won't make a case go away, but it gives the prosecutor some leverage. And if your case is not too bad, it could tip it to the right scale. And so, the first class, the DWIE Class, there's probably 10 different companies that teach it here in town. Travis County also teaches it, but I don't recommend going to Travis County, go to one of the private companies. And there's a list online and we'll give you the list and the ones we recommend. But the class is the same everywhere in the sense of the content, but the teachers and the facility are all different. So the ones we recommend we've gone and looked at and made sure the facilities are respectable.

Ellen Stader:

Take it from Roadman Law.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. So, anyway, so those are the two classes certificates that they want. And that's for a DWI first. If it's your second DWI, the is a 32 hour class. And then after that-

Ellen Stader:

Which is more of the same?

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. It's a little more personal. You-

Ellen Stader:

As it should be.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. There's a little more individual stuff. And then after that, there's intensive outpatient. Anyway, there's a stair step, that basically all law enforcement and criminal justice uses. They start you out at whatever they think. And then if you get in trouble again, they go up to the next thing. And so... But, I advise my clients, just take this class and get it over with. There's never a convenient time to do it. And then the other part of it, Travis County has an evaluation. That sometimes we have our clients do the evaluation first, if we don't know what they're going to recommend. And that costs $55. And that's just like a questionnaire, like, "How young were you when you started drinking? How much do you drink?" And that kind of thing. And a professional someone with an associate's degree in counseling who works for Travis County who has a menu and will just like check off what they think you should do.

Charlie Roadman:

Now, the 12 hour class is the minimum, always. For any DWI arrest, they never say, "We don't think you need anything". They never do that. So 12 hours is the minimum. And so, that's usually what we start our clients with. If we think that there's some prior arrests in other states or something that they might know about, then we go get the evaluation to see if they need to take the 32 hour class. But yeah, the minimum's the 12 hour and then the two hour MADD panel.

Ellen Stader:

Sounds reasonable.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah, it's not crazy. And then we have... Sometimes when I'm talking with folks, we have them take private counseling as well. That's usually if there's some other part of their life that's given them trouble. And, we show the prosecutors that at the end of whatever counseling you do. So let's say you go 5, 10, 15 times over the course of four or five months, we have the private counselor just write a short paragraph or two about the counseling and that you've been there and that you discussed the DWI. And we show that to the prosecutors and so we'll get some credit for that. And the good thing about private counseling is that, you only really have to bring up the arrest once to let the counselor know that there's an issue. But the rest of it, you can talk about works, life or whatever part of Maslow's hierarchy is giving you grief, you can talk about that. So-

Ellen Stader:

So you're not required to just talk about the arrest and the... Because obviously, these other areas of your life that are giving you trouble led up to you getting drunk and driving.

Charlie Roadman:

Typically. Or unless they're innocent. So I can't-

Ellen Stader:

Right, right, right.

Charlie Roadman:

... I'm not going to concede that yet. But, yeah, usually there's something going on.

Ellen Stader:

It's all part of the same scenario. Just different... Yeah.

Charlie Roadman:

But with this... So, that's part of the... [inaudible 00:13:09] there's an opportunity, I have pushed, pressured many of my clients into private counseling that a year later, they're so happy that they discovered this outlet. A lot of people have never done it and they're skeptical or they don't know what it is. And I say it's, you get to talk about yourself with someone. I mean, what more fun is there than that? I don't know. It's like-

Ellen Stader:

Who doesn't want to talk about themselves?

Charlie Roadman:

I know, seriously. I mean, it's like a massage, like when would that not be good?

Ellen Stader:

Right. Good point.

Charlie Roadman:

But-

Ellen Stader:

But you're right. Most people don't... Or not people, a lot of people will not make a step like that until some sort of outside event happens [crosstalk 00:14:04] some kind of catastrophe leads them to it.

Charlie Roadman:

And so, I'm a big fan of that. And I know that people... That's part of this thing, you can take this as an opportunity.

Ellen Stader:

Yeah, Absolutely. And it seems like there are more opportunities within this whole sort of nightmarish process to address your issues and change them. There are more opportunities than I would've imagined.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. I mean, I'll say that the court system has, mainly it's this class. Like when they don't want you to drink, so they make rules. So really to discover some of these issues takes proactiveness on the defendants... You know.

Ellen Stader:

Which is sort of the best policy all the way around.

Charlie Roadman:

All the way around. And I've watched husbands, wives, come together. I mean, these families coalesce around these issues. And it often surprises my clients how loving and supportive parents and families become when this happens.

Ellen Stader:

Came to rally behind them. And-

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. I mean, because again-

Ellen Stader:

That's a beautiful thing.

Charlie Roadman:

... Most people have at one time or the other gotten away with this. And so, it's... Especially dads are very sympathetic. Like, "Boy, back in 1962," or whatever. But anyway, so there's opportunities for some growth.

Ellen Stader:

And, if you can prove you've taken those opportunities, it can help your case.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. And, it has to be proof. So, I can't go and just tell the prosecutor that, it's been counseling for six months and just say it. [crosstalk 00:16:26] They would look at me like, "Hey, how do you know?". I mean, I don't know. I didn't go with them, I guess. And it's not because they don't trust me, it's because clients don't always tell their lawyers the truth about stuff. And they can't put my word... I guess they can type my words into their computer, but they'd have to say, "Defense attorney says client took six months..." That's just almost worthless, right? But a letter from a counselor who's got all sorts of letters after her name, whatever professional letter proving it, that's worth something.

Ellen Stader:

Yeah. That goes in the file.

Charlie Roadman:

That goes in the file.

Ellen Stader:

The affidavits from the classes go in the file. What else? What else helps?

Charlie Roadman:

Well, there's a lot of stuff that people wouldn't expect. We try to... Well, I mentioned earlier transcripts from school.

Ellen Stader:

Yeah. I was going to say, in an earlier episode, we talked about school transcripts and...

Charlie Roadman:

And those are especially good if you get a new round after the arrest. And then what you want to do is,-

Ellen Stader:

And they've held steady or gone up.

Charlie Roadman:

Gone up, you need them to go up. Like-

Ellen Stader:

You need them to go up.

Charlie Roadman:

I need them to go up. Because you-

Ellen Stader:

Get a DUI, raise your grades.

Charlie Roadman:

Raise your grades. And that's one of those things that the prosecutors don't see very much. And so, we're trying to show them things they haven't seen. With getting a new job or a better job. And we've had clients that worked in adult industries. And then they move out and they work at a doctor's office now. And, there's no judgment about that, but the prosecutors like that. Okay. I mean, there's less opportunity to get in trouble at a doctor's office from 8:00-5:00.

Ellen Stader:

Theoretically less alcohol involved in the industry.

Charlie Roadman:

Yes. Theoretically.

Ellen Stader:

Theoretically.

Charlie Roadman:

At least the hours... Because in the prosecutor's, like all of us old people think, nothing good happens after midnight. When I was young, it was two. Now it's almost like 9:00 PM. [crosstalk 00:18:51]. Yeah. So, they want some steady-

Ellen Stader:

Proof of steady improvement.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. And then there's other weird things that we like to get from our clients. Pictures or... I mean, certainly pictures of them and some family. The prosecutors don't like it when we do that to them. Because, we sort of slip it in real quick like, "Oh look at that, there's grandma," or whatever. They kind of roll their eyes and say, "Stop it". Like I have some prosecutors who go, "Don't show me any more pictures of your clients". Now I just laugh and show it to their colleagues. And anyway, it's all a playful game.

Ellen Stader:

Because you can't unsee that once you've seen it. There's grandma, she's a fact.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. She's a fact and she loves her grandson. But I say, what's the most unique thing about you that I can show them? And that's weird. Like I had a guy one time that debated Noam Chomsky. And I'm like, "Show me a picture of that". [crosstalk 00:19:56]. So now you go, "Well, how does that help the case?" Well, the prosecutors they remember that, they're looking at-

Ellen Stader:

It humanizes your clients.

Charlie Roadman:

It's humanizing. And so, there's... If you ride horses or if you... I mean, weird things like that.

Ellen Stader:

Any opportunity you can take to show the prosecutors that you're human and help them remember you as a human, instead of just another like page to turn.

Charlie Roadman:

Right. And those won't always get us what we want, but they open the possibility. And sometimes, obviously we're always trying to get a dismissal. So that's the goal of every defense attorney, but if we can't get that, if the facts are just too bad and the prosecutors are like, "Not happening"... Like sometimes I say you could go win a Nobel Prize and you're still going to get a conviction. There's nothing you can do. I mean, you can obviously have a jury trial and roll the dice, but, anyway. So, the... What are we talking about? I got sidetracked. The-

Ellen Stader:

Things you can submit to help your case.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. So, the strangest things work. Oh, so I was saying that we can't always get what we want. We can't always get a dismissal, but sometimes these little things will get the punishment a lot shorter. So, we usually get something. But...

Ellen Stader:

What about volunteer work?

Charlie Roadman:

That does occasionally get us somewhere. When I say... The one everyone thinks about is going to Goodwill. And so they do Goodwill for 20 hours or whatever. And Goodwill obviously is a great company, but 20 hours at Goodwill feels like 500 hours. That's a tough thing to do.-

Ellen Stader:

Yeah, it's tough gig.

Charlie Roadman:

Or say, especially in Austin, if you Google nonprofit things or something that you really like doing, I mean, there's building houses, [crosstalk 00:22:26] habitat for humanity. And if you like that kind of stuff, I mean, that stuff flies by, it doesn't even feel like-

Ellen Stader:

That's true.

Charlie Roadman:

... Work. And so, I take a selfie of you doing it, and I'll show them. And again, what I say is that these types of things won't make a case go away, but it sure opens up some possibilities for me to convince-

Ellen Stader:

Move the needle toward a lighter outcome.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. It's something. So, I don't want people doing things that they hate. So, find something that you enjoy doing.

Ellen Stader:

Because this process is already hard enough as it is.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. And it won't make the... Because people go, "Just let me pay a fine and do some community service". And it's like, if it was that easy, the county attorney would get an opponent in the next election who would promise to be tough on this. And so, they would get unelected, I call it. Which is kind of an interesting part of this explanation, is that, this is a political crime in the sense that if the people don't treat it... If the prosecutors aren't harsh or at least somewhat tough,-

Ellen Stader:

Aren't seen to be-

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. Then someone will run for office that will be. So there's this balance that-

Ellen Stader:

There's a line to walk.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. That they try to find. And so I'm trying to squeeze and get underneath the line, whatever, push. But there is a line where they'll say, he could do 5,000 community service hours and it's not going to-

Ellen Stader:

Wouldn't make a difference.

Charlie Roadman:

... change this. Because X, Y, and Z happened. I mean, they'll have reasons for it. And it's not going to be based on whether you're a wealthy person or color of your skin or anything like that. I mean, it's going to be based on the evidence as they have it. So, anyway, it is interesting. But yeah, people tell me the most interesting thing that you've done that we can show them and gather diplomas. So really, that goes back to your question. There's diplomas, and we don't need like a formal diploma, just take a picture of it and email it to us. Any awards. And then there's letters of recommendation. And this is tricky because, who wants to tell people about this? So now you don't have to tell them, because the letter recommendation doesn't have to say anything about [inaudible 00:25:06] . In fact, it's better that it doesn't-

Ellen Stader:

It just has to say that you are of good character and they know you well enough to know that.

Charlie Roadman:

Exactly. And so, usually people want to know why they're writing you a letter of recommendation. And I don't have much advice on that. You either tell them or just say, "I need one".

Ellen Stader:

For my file. You can say that.

Charlie Roadman:

For my file. Yeah. For my file.

Ellen Stader:

They don't have to know what file.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. Right. And so, one or two of those and we... Ideally, they'd be on letterhead with the contact information. The prosecutors aren't going to call them unless they think you're faking it, if they feel like it's a forgery, they might try to... But, they're not going to call them to confirm as long as it looks legitimate. However, even an email to my office saying, "From, so and so, I'm writing this about this person I know and upstanding character, I've known him for this little long," anyway. So even an email works.

Charlie Roadman:

And it is funny, just the other day, I do this joke with all the prosecutors. I go, I'll give them this stack... We call it a good guy packet. So, or it's mitigation packet. I'll give that to the prosecutors and I'll go, "My rule is, if my mitigation packet is longer than your offense report, then I win. Then you give me what..." And so that's what we're trying to do, just trying to hand them a ton of stuff. And they just sit and they flip through and they look at it and they... I'll stick a picture in there. You-

Ellen Stader:

Try and stack the deck in your client's favor.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah, exactly. And just to contrast that, I have some clients that hire us and they don't do anything. They don't send us anything and I'm going to court and the prosecutor's looking at the offense report and I'm saying,-

Ellen Stader:

"Sorry, man, I got nothing."

Charlie Roadman:

Well, I don't say that. I go, "Did you see the game last night?" Or, I try to distract him with other stuff and they look at me and say, "I'm a lawyer, Charlie," -

Ellen Stader:

It's not working.

Charlie Roadman:

Yeah. It's not working. But yeah, going to a gun fight without guns is not ideal.

Ellen Stader:

It's in people's best interest to give what they can to prove they are good guys.

Charlie Roadman:

Yes. And it's hard. I mean, we're all busy. We're all busy. And the other thing on medical records, okay, I can't forget that. Anything particularly that involves balance is useful, so like-

Ellen Stader:

Physical balance.

Charlie Roadman:

Physical balance. Your knees, I mean, even shoulders, any injuries you've had over the past. Or if you you're having issues, go to the doctor now and get them to check it out and just write up something saying their analysis of... So,-

Ellen Stader:

Because that would help.

Charlie Roadman:

Okay. Yeah. It's a great... So what it would help with is, in a trial, we would want to explain why our client wasn't doing great on the tests or-

Ellen Stader:

On a field sobriety test.

Charlie Roadman:

On a field sobriety test. And so, by getting these medical records and giving it to the prosecutor, that's a way of showing the prosecutor, this is what a trial would look like. I'll be showing these to the jurors. And even if the prosecutor goes, "That was 20 years ago," or... It's still something that they can put in their file to get closer to do what I want them to do, which is some type of dismissal. So, I don't... Anything, eyes, ears, anything. I say, a bad haircut is not going to get me anywhere, but I'll try. That would be funny. Show me a picture of you with a bad haircut. But anyway-

Ellen Stader:

It was an asymmetrical cut. It threw me off.

Charlie Roadman:

Exactly. See, that's a good joke. The prosecutors would laugh at that joke. And when they're laughing, their brain's not indignant.

Ellen Stader:

They're slightly more receptive.

Charlie Roadman:

It's more than slightly, it's kind of-

Ellen Stader:

It's psychology.

Charlie Roadman:

It is. It's, if I can get them laughing, I'm halfway there. Which is good, because I like to make people laugh.

Ellen Stader:

You're a funny guy.

Charlie Roadman:

I don't know about that, but I do know I want to be a funny guy.